Feminist Subjectivism in Action
This may be of greatest interest to those who follow the twistings and windings of counter-feminist philosophy rather closely. Advanced students, in other words. I am taking for granted that such students do exist.
The phrase feminist subjectivism crops up around here quite a bit, and today I stumbled upon a stellar example of the phenomenon in question. In fact, the example is so good that I couldn't dream of not sharing. Briefly, we here confront a person who seems to be a feminist, which is to say, a feminist triumphalist. And this person harbors an intellectual deficiency that virtually every feminist I've ever known is afflicted with, namely, that he can't or won't recognize that people outside the circle of feminist indoctrination have a different view of feminism -- and many other things! -- than do people inside that circle.
This citizen's name is Gregory Pettigrew, and he blogs at LiveJournal under the monniker of Etherial. I will send you now to the LJ post under discussion, which is short and contains 2 links. Be sure to follow the second of those links in order to fully appreciate what is going on here:
http://etherial.livejournal.com/274667.html?style=mine
You will see that Gregory has linked to my very own CF post explaining the nature of patriarchy. And he sweeps my entire thesis off the table with a short, dismissive backhand, as follows:
All right. If he had paid closer attention to my essay, he'd have understood the real point of it: that I was factor-analyzing feminist semantics from a non-feminist point of view. But you see, these people lack the gift to see themselves as others see them. However, I am one of those "others", and I am gifted to see these people as they cannot, or will not, see themselves. See? So I am able to make good their lack, and in that respect I render them a service!
Yes. Every house has both an inside and an outside, and if you don't "get out much", you will never learn what your house looks like from the outside . . . will you? Very well, Gregory devotes two or three short paragraphs to explaining what "patriarchy" (according to him) really is. And when I study Gregory's description, I feel myself in the presence of -- let me say it -- a cultic understanding of the world. Honestly now, I can't think of a better name for what I am reading!
What Gregory describes, is not so much the real world as a consensus about the world that he shares with a certain peer group. The configuration of notions which he offers up, along with the "spin" he sets upon these notions, is only arbitrary or interpretive, and often of arguable veracity:
The droning, deadening, hypnotic reiteration in "patriarchy says . . patriarchy says" is the oldest technique in the demagogue's manual -- Hitler and Goebbels used this little trick all the time! One flatulent asseveration after another after another, ad nauseam! Pure, pompous windbaggery, and pure, unadulterated nothing! Why, you would damn near think patriarchy was a living person who could literally say all of those amazing things which, according to Gregory, it is forever saying to us!
All right, so according to Gregory, patriarchy, a personified non-person, is mandating a crapload of different things. And if you scan the paragraph, you will indeed find a cluttered ragbag of violations which somebody is allegedly inflicting on somebody, somehow, somewhere, at some time -- although none too clear as to particulars! However, we are assured this is all the doing of . . . patriarchy!
When I read all of this, my eyes glaze over. In some cases, I can't even conceptualize what he is talking about -- it is entirely abstract and untethered from anything I find existentially meaningful. In other cases, I do know what he's talking about, but I honestly don't give a rip -- for example, crying at the movies: I've never done that and never wanted to, and cannot understand why anybody would! And in still other cases, I can see no evidence that the things in question are actually occurring -- or at least not uniformly enough, or on a grand enough scale, to justify the hype they've been invested with.
I should add that the passage highlighted in red is a very dirty land grab: it tries to steal a grubby half-acre of moral high ground to which feminism holds no title.
So again, I believe we are reading something which describes a cultic understanding of the world -- a selective understanding, a cherry-picked understanding, an understanding held in common by certain people who take their understanding for objective truth, and from this conclude that they occupy a privileged position of hegemonic normativity. But these people are not like you and I; they are very different from us, and for that reason, they work a hardship on us and introduce tortuous complexities into our lives. They believe that they "are the world", in a way that they themselves find meaningful, yet fail to comprehend that the rest of us, also, are the world.
Such. . . is feminist subjectivism.
It is as if a conceptual or cognitive event horizon separates their world from ours, that no communication is possible across that barrier, that we are under no obligation to get sucked in, and finally, that they have no moral right to drag us in.
No. We cannot reasonably require everybody on earth to fathom what the hell people like Gregory Pettigrew are talking about, when they spin such cobwebs as they do. And further, we are not amiss to believe that quite a few reasonable folk could, by altogether valid and honorable pathways of ratiocination, arrive at a markedly different understanding of the world that is entirely respectable on its own merits. Simply put, feminism is not the only game in town.
The phrase feminist subjectivism crops up around here quite a bit, and today I stumbled upon a stellar example of the phenomenon in question. In fact, the example is so good that I couldn't dream of not sharing. Briefly, we here confront a person who seems to be a feminist, which is to say, a feminist triumphalist. And this person harbors an intellectual deficiency that virtually every feminist I've ever known is afflicted with, namely, that he can't or won't recognize that people outside the circle of feminist indoctrination have a different view of feminism -- and many other things! -- than do people inside that circle.
This citizen's name is Gregory Pettigrew, and he blogs at LiveJournal under the monniker of Etherial. I will send you now to the LJ post under discussion, which is short and contains 2 links. Be sure to follow the second of those links in order to fully appreciate what is going on here:
http://etherial.livejournal.com/274667.html?style=mine
You will see that Gregory has linked to my very own CF post explaining the nature of patriarchy. And he sweeps my entire thesis off the table with a short, dismissive backhand, as follows:
"That is, of course, not remotely what patriarchy is."But of course, he has no authority to say that, does he? Well, does he? What fountain does HE think his authority flows from, anyway? Where does he get HIS pontification license, eh? What gives him in particular the right to tell the rest of us what patriarchy--remotely or otherwise!--is or is not?
All right. If he had paid closer attention to my essay, he'd have understood the real point of it: that I was factor-analyzing feminist semantics from a non-feminist point of view. But you see, these people lack the gift to see themselves as others see them. However, I am one of those "others", and I am gifted to see these people as they cannot, or will not, see themselves. See? So I am able to make good their lack, and in that respect I render them a service!
Yes. Every house has both an inside and an outside, and if you don't "get out much", you will never learn what your house looks like from the outside . . . will you? Very well, Gregory devotes two or three short paragraphs to explaining what "patriarchy" (according to him) really is. And when I study Gregory's description, I feel myself in the presence of -- let me say it -- a cultic understanding of the world. Honestly now, I can't think of a better name for what I am reading!
What Gregory describes, is not so much the real world as a consensus about the world that he shares with a certain peer group. The configuration of notions which he offers up, along with the "spin" he sets upon these notions, is only arbitrary or interpretive, and often of arguable veracity:
"As a man, Patriarchy is my enemy. Patriarchy says I don't get to cry at movies unless they're about sports. Patriarchy says that I must act like a predator to find a mate. Patriarchy says that I must be better than my spouse at just about everything, except cooking, cleaning, and raising the kids. Patriarchy says that children belong with their mother, even when the mother is an abusive psychopath. Patriarchy says that I am sick and wrong for even thinking about being my children's primary caregiver. Patriarchy says that I am sick and wrong for being bisexual. Patriarchy says the only emotions I get to feel are anger, pride, and shame. And Patriarchy insults my abilities by giving me an unfair advantage over women."My chief quarrel with Gregory is NOT that I disagree with what he is saying, but that I do not feel he has truly said anything, and that I am somehow burdened with an implicit requirement to take his speech seriously -- I mean, to discharge an opinion or adopt a moral standpoint toward something that is, frankly, nothing. I feel that Gregory has fobbed or foisted this on me. And I don't take it kindly, because I think it is asking too much of anybody that they should be called upon to think or feel something about nothing.
The droning, deadening, hypnotic reiteration in "patriarchy says . . patriarchy says" is the oldest technique in the demagogue's manual -- Hitler and Goebbels used this little trick all the time! One flatulent asseveration after another after another, ad nauseam! Pure, pompous windbaggery, and pure, unadulterated nothing! Why, you would damn near think patriarchy was a living person who could literally say all of those amazing things which, according to Gregory, it is forever saying to us!
All right, so according to Gregory, patriarchy, a personified non-person, is mandating a crapload of different things. And if you scan the paragraph, you will indeed find a cluttered ragbag of violations which somebody is allegedly inflicting on somebody, somehow, somewhere, at some time -- although none too clear as to particulars! However, we are assured this is all the doing of . . . patriarchy!
When I read all of this, my eyes glaze over. In some cases, I can't even conceptualize what he is talking about -- it is entirely abstract and untethered from anything I find existentially meaningful. In other cases, I do know what he's talking about, but I honestly don't give a rip -- for example, crying at the movies: I've never done that and never wanted to, and cannot understand why anybody would! And in still other cases, I can see no evidence that the things in question are actually occurring -- or at least not uniformly enough, or on a grand enough scale, to justify the hype they've been invested with.
I should add that the passage highlighted in red is a very dirty land grab: it tries to steal a grubby half-acre of moral high ground to which feminism holds no title.
So again, I believe we are reading something which describes a cultic understanding of the world -- a selective understanding, a cherry-picked understanding, an understanding held in common by certain people who take their understanding for objective truth, and from this conclude that they occupy a privileged position of hegemonic normativity. But these people are not like you and I; they are very different from us, and for that reason, they work a hardship on us and introduce tortuous complexities into our lives. They believe that they "are the world", in a way that they themselves find meaningful, yet fail to comprehend that the rest of us, also, are the world.
Such. . . is feminist subjectivism.
It is as if a conceptual or cognitive event horizon separates their world from ours, that no communication is possible across that barrier, that we are under no obligation to get sucked in, and finally, that they have no moral right to drag us in.
No. We cannot reasonably require everybody on earth to fathom what the hell people like Gregory Pettigrew are talking about, when they spin such cobwebs as they do. And further, we are not amiss to believe that quite a few reasonable folk could, by altogether valid and honorable pathways of ratiocination, arrive at a markedly different understanding of the world that is entirely respectable on its own merits. Simply put, feminism is not the only game in town.



20 Comments:
"Patriarchy says I don't get to cry at movies unless they're about sports. Patriarchy says that I must act like a predator to find a mate. Patriarchy says that I must be better than my spouse at just about everything, except cooking, cleaning, and raising the kids. Patriarchy says that children belong with their mother, even when the mother is an abusive psychopath. Patriarchy says that I am sick and wrong for even thinking about being my children's primary caregiver. Patriarchy says that I am sick and wrong for being bisexual. Patriarchy says the only emotions I get to feel are anger, pride, and shame. And Patriarchy insults my abilities by giving me an unfair advantage over women."
Ironically, all these things which Gregory blames on the patriarchy (with the exception perhaps of the bisexuality part) are actually the caused by the attitudes of women and feminism. The reason he can't cry is because women are repulsed by it. The reason he must be a predator is because women are attracted to dominance, and it is women who don't want him horning in on their child raising turf.
Ha! etherial linked to your patrarchy post thanks to me. etherial is a radical mangina, except you'll find his actual positioning contrary to the normal radfem position. He claims he isn't like Twisty Faster or Nine Deuce or any of the countless other radfems on the internet. He'll say the patriarchy gives men unfair advantages, and that it sometimes hurts men too.(Contrary, much?) I'm debating him right now in a gaming forum, and he is immune to reason.
I'm sorry for the double post.
I also want to mention: I think it is wrong to make LGBT issues feminist or MRA issues they are their own thing.
Etherial is wrong. The mere fact that society is progressing to recognize that people have their own sexual desires and needs, this so called "patriarchy" is non existant.
You'll never see me reference LGBT issues or my own sexual orientation in a MRA discussion because it doesn't add anything to the conversation and it's like a special plea for attention.
People like etherial who try to hijack other issues that affect me, a submissive bisexual male and claim them as feminist or MRA issues disgust me.
Man, did this guy ever not do his research.
"Patriarchy says I don't get to cry at movies unless they're about sports."
I seem to recall stories made back in the evil old "patriarchy" that shows it perfectly acceptable for men to cry. In fact, unless my memory is way off base, Jesus Christ cried, more than once.
"Patriarchy says that I must act like a predator to find a mate."
Now, I wasn't alive back before feminism really took off, so my knowledge of the "era of the patriarchy" i.e. prior to 1960 or so, is mostly secondhand information, however all the stories I've heard say that men used to have to take girls out on real dates, get them home at a decent hour, pull out chairs for them, open car doors for them, buy them things, get the approval of the girls parents, you know, generally NOT act like a predator in order to find a mate.
"Patriarchy says that children belong with their mother, even when the mother is an abusive psychopath."
Wrong. Children used to go with the father. It was the proto-feminists that got that changed. If you're going to blame someone for something, at least make sure you're blaming the right people.
"Patriarchy says that I am sick and wrong for even thinking about being my children's primary caregiver."
No, it doesn't in the slightest. He really needs to stop projecting his own insecurities as societal attitudes.
"Patriarchy says that I am sick and wrong for being bisexual."
Projection, again. I lived in a dorm with 40 guys, a couple of which were gay, and several of which were bisexual. Aside from some mild teasing that they laughed at too, there was never anything like what he describes.
"Patriarchy says the only emotions I get to feel are anger, pride, and shame."
No, "patriarchy" says to control your emotions so that you don't make bad decisions because you're in an emotional state, to not let them control you, to be the "eye in the center of the storm" as it were. "Patriarchy" never says to not feel emotions at all.
"And Patriarchy insults my abilities by giving me an unfair advantage over women."
Excuse me? Who gets all the laws promising them an easier road? It ain't men, that's for damn sure.
This guy is utterly nuts. Not only does he paint some conspiracy theory-esque "Patriarchy" being in control of the world that works to the benefit of men and the detriment of women, half of the stuff he blames "Patriarchy" for is actually the fault of the feminists, and the other half goes against what the big, evil "Patriarchy" actually stood for.
Nice to see you dismiss this lunatic, Fidelbogen.
@Anon
Correct. My wife says he's projecting his insecurities about himself(she's a psychologist.) You'll also find that while he is utterly insane, his ideology(radical feminism) states that while men have *special* privileges the current repressive system that grants these privileges hurts men and women(but it hurts them worse.) The list of privileges that most radfems say we have is subjective at best and outright malicious at worst. I'll post radfem theory later, so perhaps FB can dissect it. ;-)
Sorry for the double post but>>>
I promised radfem theory.
Radical feminism maintains that women’s oppression is the first, most widespread, and deepest oppression. Radical feminism rejects most scientific theories, data, and experiment not only because they exclude women but also because they are not women-centered. Radical feminism suggests that because men, masculinity, and patriarchy have become completely intertwined with technology and computer systems in our society, no truly feminist alternative to technology exists.
Thanks for sharing this great post. It’s very enlightening. I absolutely love to read informative stuff. Looking forward to find out more and acquire further knowledge from here! Cheers!
@silentblood:
Radical Feminism is technically different from other forms of feminism (according to the feminist lexicon), but as a counter-feminist, my endeavor is to see the substrate of essential similarity that runs through them all. And. . to apply thoughts and proposed actions to that substrate.
Besides, the different categories of feminism overlap and bleed into each other in practice, and in the minds of the practitioners, to such an extent that I find I must parse the data in a very different way in order to gain the necessary intellectual traction.
"Radical" feminism grows naturally out of "liberal" feminism, as Zillah Eisenstein explains in The Radical Future of Liberal Feminism.
And most feminism has at least a covert or 'crypto' streak of Marxism about it.
@Fidelbogen
I understand what you're saying. I don't think that's entirely the case though. Different forms of feminism are different enough that they will often argue amongst themselves(we generally don't see it, but it's there), I feel it's worth noting the differences and be able to debate their ideologies with their own ideologies.
"I feel it's worth noting the differences and be able to debate their ideologies with their own ideologies."
Quite right; there is nothing wrong with gathering intell IF it can be shown to be useful toward defeating the enemy. "Know thine enemy" is always a good maxim.
But. . . the danger of learning feminism on its own terms and arguing WITH IT on its own terms, is that you will turn into a kind of intellectual kiss-arse, and finally, turn into a kind of second-hand feminist yourself.
My whole endeavor has always been to steer clear of anything that would tend to validate their discourse.
That is precisely the quicksand to be avoided. Nothing validates their discourse more effectively than DISCOURSING their discourse your own self!
counterfem.blogspot.com/2006/11/overwriting-feminist-categories.html
Fine. I'll admit that you have a point. I"ve been doing it Wrong(with a capital W), I have been using using their own theory to debate them(also partly justified since I was a feminist at one point and good debate requires that you know the other side well) I see the problems associated with it. On the other hand, I've won more debates by knowing their theory better than your average feminist, they never know what hits them. It's also better than making a straw man of the feminist position. :-/
@silentblood:
If you have developed a successful formula, use it. Whatever works, works. Certainly, there is room for many approaches.
But in my own thinking, I lean toward the unconventional.
It is not 'making a strawman of the feminist position', but rather, defining an entirely NEW position from a non-feminist point of view. And then, making the other side debate YOUR position, rather than consenting to debate their position on their terms. For they need to be taught that they are not the world, and that involves flipping the script.
As a NON-FEMINIST, I am showing them a damn sight more respect than they deserve by even agreeing to converse on their level WHATSOEVER.
And they must be made to understand this. It will be a kind of intellectual shock-therapy, no doubt!
Come to think of it, forget the word "debate". The name of the game is really "interrogation".
Or, if they are willing, "negotiation".
You see the problem is of course is that feminists will cherry pick from their own theories to sell their brand of feminism. Etherial is guilty of it. He only gives you the fragment that's supposed to make us(men) hate the big P. I agree that traditional roles should be a choice but that isn't radfem's game, rather it celebrates liberation for women at the expense of male privilege(according to them, we have quite a bit of this), which to your average person this equates to "male bad, female good".
Absolutely EXCELLENT.
I remember an embarrassing time when I decided to be pro feminism because someone told me over 100 years ago men in England could tar and feather their wives.
I feel sooooo stupid for falling for this. No man ever did it or wanted to do it, so there was no law needed to say he couldn't. Soooo, feminists said he could.
...........
I have to say, this is the first time I've seen a feminist supporter think feminism is pro fathers.
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
Yay! Feminist subjectivism! I think you'll have fun with this Fidelbogen. :-)
@silentblood:
I have known the document in question for quite some time.
And to be honest. . I find Ampersand so detestable, that I prefer for the sake of my mental health to avoid exposure.
There is also a female privilege checklist which somebody put together, and I will post a link to it when I find time to look it up.
". . someone told me over 100 years ago men in England could tar and feather their wives.
I feel sooooo stupid for falling for this. No man ever did it or wanted to do it, so there was no law needed to say he couldn't. Soooo, feminists said he could."
Thank you for sharing this "fun fact". It is a small thing, however. . small things speak large, and they go for the jugular!
Fun fact: When I identified as a feminist, I actually believed that women were given a terrible deal(*class* is the biggest source of oppression not gender,). I realized the poison of feminism in college when I needed medicine and I was unable to get it on basis of my sex(you know a medical card is only for single mothers and children, teh menz have to work hard and pay for teh lazy womenz!) and well, I thought they actually cared about LGBT issues(how stupid of me! Feminists care only for women!)
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