A Reference to Julian Assange For Your Brief Amusement
My thanks to George Rolph for the sharing the following.
This is from the Huffington Post, of all places -- admittedly, not a publication that I read much. The article is handy, however, because it addresses the Julian Assange debacle -- which I have certainly kept up with, but (gasp!) haven't blogged about!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html
Now, this one comes straight from the department of "consider the source". The funny thing is, that Naomi Wolf's expressed opinion on the Julian Assange case so very closely matches my own! Truly, I would take exception to very little of this -- why, it could easily have been written by one of our more temperate MRAs! All except the bit about "suffragette foremothers", anyway.
To me, it almost sounds like Little Ms. Fire-with-fire is positioning herself -- or rather, re-positioning herself. And I don't even claim to know if she is consciously doing this, but on the objective surface of matters, something of the sort surely appears to be happening.
Anyhow, Naomi is practicing satire. She does it well, and yet . . . in so doing she reveals more about the true face of feminism then she is perhaps aware! The caricature of a ditzoid victim-feminist which she enacts for our entertainment, is in fact a chillingly accurate portrayal of what feminism in its naked essence, when pushed to its logical extreme, actually amounts to. Does it not occur to Naomi Wolf that what she narrates is no fantasy -- that INTERPOL is actually behaving in the way that she describes, that Swedish police are actually behaving along similar lines, and so on? And has it never once crossed her mind that feminism has been a critical guiding factor in the genesis and efflorescence of this whole imbroglio?
I will leave aside the distinct possibility that earthly powers are out to nail Julian Assange for more compelling reasons. After all, Naomi pays no mind to this.
So, Naomi Wolf plainly wants to distance herself. What she describes is not her feminism, you understand! And so she invites the lot of us -- moderate MRAs included! -- to join in the big, bright, happy club of Those Who Know Better, and to smirk happily along that primrose highway toward a big, bright, happy future of "true equality". . . or some such. Well, thank heavens I am not a moderate MRA!
You might gather that I don't think much of Naomi Wolf -- and that could be a whole essay in itself. But now let's hear from somebody else who doesn't care for Naomi. Only, this person takes aim from an opposite compass bearing. The party I will next introduce, blogs on Wordpress under the monniker of Hellonhairylegs -- that's "hell on hairy legs". And Hellonhairylegs is by self-description a radical feminist -- did the name give you a clue, perhaps?
In this blog post from almost precisely two years ago, Hellonhairylegs reams Naomi Wolf for her bestselling 1994 book Fire With Fire:
http://hellonhairylegs.wordpress.com/2008/12/13/fire-with-fire-naomi-wolf/
I left a comment on "Angry Hairy's" blog, and this presently awaits moderation. So for the sake of posterity I share it below:
Hairylegs shouldn't trouble herself that Naomi is creating a binary between Liberal and Radical feminism. That binary is and always has been false -- as Hairyhell would undoubtedly agree! For whether you call it a binary or otherwise, it is what it is. The future of liberal feminism is, and always has been, radical -- because that is the direction in which the logic naturally unfolds! Naomi Wolf rightly recognizes that women are a de facto ruling class. And the only reason that Hellonlegs doesn't recognize this is because, to her, women are not yet enough of a ruling class -- they don't quite rule sufficiently for her liking; she wants to secure MOAR power for them.
So finally, I don't want to see Naomi Wolf OR Hellonhairylegs in the driver's seat of sociopolitical power. They will both take us to the same place in the end, even if Naomi (a supremacist lite) drives slower and pays better attention to the road.
But, giving credit where credit is due, I was genuinely entertained by Naomi Wolf's opinion piece on Julian Assange, and I agree with most of it.
This is from the Huffington Post, of all places -- admittedly, not a publication that I read much. The article is handy, however, because it addresses the Julian Assange debacle -- which I have certainly kept up with, but (gasp!) haven't blogged about!
"Thank you again, Interpol. I know you will now prioritize the global manhunt for 1.3 million guys I have heard similar complaints about personally in the US alone -- there is an entire fraternity at the University of Texas you need to arrest immediately. I also have firsthand information that John Smith in Providence, Rhode Island, went to a stag party -- with strippers! -- that his girlfriend wanted him to skip, and that Mark Levinson in Corvallis, Oregon, did not notice that his girlfriend got a really cute new haircut -- even though it was THREE INCHES SHORTER."And the author of this piece -- are you ready? It is the notoriously narcissistic, crybaby feminist Naomi Wolf! Mind you, Naomi is past her prime and not so high on the radar screen as erstwhile. But hey, she can still knock 'em dead, as we see presently. Right? But here is the link to the full article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html
Now, this one comes straight from the department of "consider the source". The funny thing is, that Naomi Wolf's expressed opinion on the Julian Assange case so very closely matches my own! Truly, I would take exception to very little of this -- why, it could easily have been written by one of our more temperate MRAs! All except the bit about "suffragette foremothers", anyway.
To me, it almost sounds like Little Ms. Fire-with-fire is positioning herself -- or rather, re-positioning herself. And I don't even claim to know if she is consciously doing this, but on the objective surface of matters, something of the sort surely appears to be happening.
Anyhow, Naomi is practicing satire. She does it well, and yet . . . in so doing she reveals more about the true face of feminism then she is perhaps aware! The caricature of a ditzoid victim-feminist which she enacts for our entertainment, is in fact a chillingly accurate portrayal of what feminism in its naked essence, when pushed to its logical extreme, actually amounts to. Does it not occur to Naomi Wolf that what she narrates is no fantasy -- that INTERPOL is actually behaving in the way that she describes, that Swedish police are actually behaving along similar lines, and so on? And has it never once crossed her mind that feminism has been a critical guiding factor in the genesis and efflorescence of this whole imbroglio?
I will leave aside the distinct possibility that earthly powers are out to nail Julian Assange for more compelling reasons. After all, Naomi pays no mind to this.
So, Naomi Wolf plainly wants to distance herself. What she describes is not her feminism, you understand! And so she invites the lot of us -- moderate MRAs included! -- to join in the big, bright, happy club of Those Who Know Better, and to smirk happily along that primrose highway toward a big, bright, happy future of "true equality". . . or some such. Well, thank heavens I am not a moderate MRA!
You might gather that I don't think much of Naomi Wolf -- and that could be a whole essay in itself. But now let's hear from somebody else who doesn't care for Naomi. Only, this person takes aim from an opposite compass bearing. The party I will next introduce, blogs on Wordpress under the monniker of Hellonhairylegs -- that's "hell on hairy legs". And Hellonhairylegs is by self-description a radical feminist -- did the name give you a clue, perhaps?
In this blog post from almost precisely two years ago, Hellonhairylegs reams Naomi Wolf for her bestselling 1994 book Fire With Fire:
http://hellonhairylegs.wordpress.com/2008/12/13/fire-with-fire-naomi-wolf/
I left a comment on "Angry Hairy's" blog, and this presently awaits moderation. So for the sake of posterity I share it below:
How interesting that Naomi Wolf apparently "isn't radical enough". As a non-feminist outsider, beholding the discourse, as it were, 'from afar', the compression of perspective gives the illusion (to my eye, anyway) that the distance between Naomi, and the author of the present blog, isn't really much at all. Call it feminist subjectivism v. non-feminist objectivism.And now, if I didn't make it clear above, here's at it again. In feminist terms, Naomi Wolf and Hairyhell have quite a gap between them. And it's true that if you are standing close-up, within the perimeter of the feminist world, you'll find this gap wide enough to accomodate a fleet of 18-wheelers, shoulder-to-shoulder. But the feminist world is small, and the distance which separates our world from their world is immensely greater than the space between a pair of squabbling insiders. Yes, objects viewed from a distance always look closer together.
Hairylegs shouldn't trouble herself that Naomi is creating a binary between Liberal and Radical feminism. That binary is and always has been false -- as Hairyhell would undoubtedly agree! For whether you call it a binary or otherwise, it is what it is. The future of liberal feminism is, and always has been, radical -- because that is the direction in which the logic naturally unfolds! Naomi Wolf rightly recognizes that women are a de facto ruling class. And the only reason that Hellonlegs doesn't recognize this is because, to her, women are not yet enough of a ruling class -- they don't quite rule sufficiently for her liking; she wants to secure MOAR power for them.
So finally, I don't want to see Naomi Wolf OR Hellonhairylegs in the driver's seat of sociopolitical power. They will both take us to the same place in the end, even if Naomi (a supremacist lite) drives slower and pays better attention to the road.
But, giving credit where credit is due, I was genuinely entertained by Naomi Wolf's opinion piece on Julian Assange, and I agree with most of it.



82 Comments:
Naomi Wolf wouldn't care at all about Julian Assange if she wouldn't sympathize with the Wikileaks agenda. That's why she acknowledges for once what a charade those rape accusations are.
Hm? I never paid attention to the Julian Assange thing. But I agree with Michael, Naomi, wouldn't care about false rape accusations, if she didn't care for Wikileaks.
@Fidelbogen
What do you mean when you say "moderate" MRA? Are you talking about progressive masculists? My husband is clueless on this one.
@SbWO:
Granted that Naomi wouldn't personally care about that, but for various reasons might wish to appear to do so. The Wikileaks motive being just one of the possibilities.
"Moderate" MRAs? Hardly a technical term, and admittedly not a very exact one. It would simply mean guys who aren't rampantly scurrilous and foaming at the mouth. Although in my own case, I call myself "not moderate" because I preach a rather hard line, even if I walk a fine line. However, I am a smooth talker and don't cuss much - unlike a lot of these fellas.
I'm not sure what a 'progressive masculist' is, unless that refers to a member of the greatly reviled pro-feminist men's movement, who would neither call themselves MRAs nor be so called by actual MRAs.
@Fidelbogen
Thanks! A progressive masculist maintains that masculism is half of humanism and feminism is the other half. Wikipedia says that Warren Farrell is a progressive masculist(as an example, as accurate as we can assume it is.) The idea is that each half is supposed to balance the other and it will lower misandry and misogyny and allow humans to progress as a whole.
(Honestly, I'd like to read some of these perspectives :-s)
Just a question Fidelbogen:
I have noticed that many women - as they get older and older - start to regret their pasts - or more specifically, regret the brand of feminism or princessism they embraced when they were younger.
I have spoken to many women who have such regrets.
Is it possible - that Naomi is simply "getting old", and is now slightly repentant of her earlier embracing of such a destructive ideology (feminism)?
And please - do not misunderstand me here - I am not being an apologist for her. In my opinion, there are no excuses for embracing such a hateful and male-alienating philosophy as feminism...
I have simply noticed that many women seem to reget embracing it as they get older (and wiser - or perhaps just more lonely)??
@sbwo:
Warren Farrell's half-and-half solution sounds . . pleasant.
Well okay, it sounds like wishy-washy liberal bromide.
Also, before you go about solving a problem, first ascertain that there IS one. "Misogyny" is largely a phony issue that the feminists use to stir up trouble and, in the long run, cultivate the conditions for self-fulfilling prophecy.
Continued feminist agitation on the subject of "misogyny" will only (gasp!) generate more misogyny! No rocket surgery here, folks!
It will also (huge surprise!) generate more misandry! For ennit perfectly logical that if men are hating women more, women will respond by hating men more, etc etc, round-and-round the mulberry bush? The issue is not simply misogyny or misandry, but bad feeling between the sexes overall.
Which is what feminism stirs up.
Call it an ecological dysfunctionality.
Anyhow, once feminism gets knocked down for the count, residual karma could likely be set to rights by nothing more exotic that people learning to mind their manners.
Granted, that sounds so borrrring!
@ScareCrowe:
I have no idea if Naomi Wolf is afflicted with the affliction that you suggest, but I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility. Who knows what lurks in the vaults of her mind?
@Fidelbogen
That sounded a bit... rantish. :-)
Quite frankly, while I respect Dr.Farrell's writing, I can't personally agree with his proposed solutions(if they are indeed his, as we all know Ol' Wiki isn't the best source of info). I would like to think that others will realize that feminism is poisonous and hurts everyone(it's puritanical ideas about women insult me) and isn't salvageable.
I was just wondering if "moderate" MRAs were progressive masculists.
*don't kill me* :-)
"I was just wondering if "moderate" MRAs were progressive masculists."
From the description of progressive masculism that you have given, I am sure that if you took a poll among MRAs, you would find a certain percentage who would accept this as a self-descriptor. I say so based on my observation of MRAs extending over several years.
The portion of MRAs who might respond as suggested above, could reasonably (in my opinion) be characterized as "moderate".
And yes, I do believe that a certain number of MRAs (I can't say exactly what proportion) would sign on with the Farrell programme as given.
There are a lot of other MRAs, however, who would dismiss it as rubbish.
MRAs are a varied lot, I must say.
"That sounded a bit... rantish. :-)"
That is how us MRAs have a tendency to roll: rantishly.
As they say in France: "C'est de la deformation professionelle."
@Fidelbogen
The *gasp* women's group*, I belong too is more like a real life MRA group. So yes, I agree that MRAs are varied, like any movement. I guess the issue is of course is that each group differs on sulutions.
*This group happens to be a religious group(Norse heathenry) and us women are in agreement that feminism is destroying families and hurting the men in our lives. We discuss unfair laws and petition to change them. Feminism is Loki's brood, pure and simple. >:-(
@sbwo:
I must google on Loki, when I get a chance. Norse mythology is one of the thin spots in my education.
MRAs aren't really a "movement" at all. "MRA" is simply a convenient umbrella term that somebody coined five or six years ago, when writing "men's rights activist" all the time, in forums and such, got tiresome.
And as they say, the name stuck.
A more accurate description of what is happening, all around, is that various individual and groups all across the landscape are deciding that feminism is not such a good thing, and they are in the process of "finding each other".
I call this whole big mashup the "non-feminist revolution", because I think that name captures the fluid nature of the whole business better than any other name.
The feminists, of course, are the utterly clueless ones about what is really going on. They have too many mental filters and blockages to adequately comprehend it.
@Fidelbogen
Loki is a trickster(similar to the Christian devil) He will lead the Jotun(giants) against Asgard and the gods at Ragnarok. I feel he's using feminism to destroy our families and prevent the breaking of winter(without that, we'll all die!). And yes it's probably a bit extreme to pin feminism on Loki, but it seems like his work. Anyone who supports feminism is empowering our great enemy! >.< I just realized that I'm getting a bit emotional about this ^_^
"A broken clock is right at least two times a day."
"A woman will take anything as the truth if she has a reason to do so."
I have no idea what this "extreme feminism" is, but usually it is being used by men in trouble - for example Dr Dylan Evans in the Sunday Times, but he was found guilty of sexual harassment http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=414495 and went to court only to lose. Feminism (extreme or vanilla) is not the explanation for misogynistic behaviour.
@siletblood's wife:
Slow down killer! I hate feminism as much as the next person, but I would hesitate to call it the work of the devil. Just chill out, ok?
@Fidelbogen
I would be a progressive masculist if *i*feminism was the feminist movement and not those lunatic women of the current _feminist movement. I happen to support men's rights and *i*feminism. I think it is a more balanced approach than what is currently practiced by most MRAs
@Fidelbogen:
Thanks.
"Afflicted with the affliction"...
lol...
Thought you might like to see this
http://theantifeminist.com/swedish-dad-on-swedish-justice-system/
"Over 5000 men , while only 294 women are serving jailtime( KVV 2009). The Swedish government are jailing men for violence or sex crimes against women and children without any proof at all. One member of the supreme court has stated publicly that “If we can keep the number of innocent that are convicted under 500 a year, we should be happy”. This would mean that over a 1000 men (one fifth) of all imprisoned men are innocently locked up at the moment."
@ketshnon:
"I have no idea what this "extreme feminism" is. . "
NO idea? Then you are living under a rock inside a cave. But that is not my problem.
"Feminism (extreme or vanilla) is not the explanation for misogynistic behaviour."
Continued feminist agitation on the subject of "misogyny" will only (gasp!) generate more misogyny!
Read the above 80 or 90 times until the meaning finally sinks in. And in the future, pay attention the first time!
"I would be a progressive masculist if *i*feminism was the feminist movement and not those lunatic women of the current _feminist movement. I happen to support men's rights and *i*feminism. I think it is a more balanced approach than what is currently practiced by most MRAs"
Anon, to be honest, that entire realm of discussion holds very little interest for me. I've got my eye on a very, very different chessboard. Oh yes . . .
"Slow down killer! I hate feminism as much as the next person, but I would hesitate to call it the work of the devil. Just chill out, ok?"
Anon, have you considered that maybe SBWO was speaking figuratively?
I myself have no problem saying, just as a figure of speech, that feminism is "the devil's work".
@Anon and Fidelbogen
I was speaking figuratively. However I call it wicked(and I make no truce or treaty with wickedness) I'm very passionate in my own brand of anti-feminism. I hate the repressive ideology. Feminists tell me I'm a traitor to all women because I love feminine clothing and I love soft girly colors(and a nice dose of black). They tell me that I'm benefitting from some "patriarchy" and being oppressed. How does that work? I hate feminism, it's emasculating laws, and it's puritanical attitudes
If you think about it... basically, Julian Assange now sits in a Victorian prison because of hurting the feelings of two Swedish feminist women. It's crazy isn't it.
The good news is: After this is over, there will be a pattern left in people's mind. The moment the next man gets framed with similar allegations, it will be easier for the general public to recognize what's going on: "Wait a minute, what they accuse him of reminds me of the BS allegations against that Wikileaks guy!".
@silentblood's wife
So I'm wicked because I happen to be a feminist? I loved your strawman too. No, I'm not some hag that wants some inverse of the current oppressive patriarchy(it hurts men too!) I want men and women to be equal and free to be who they are instead of their roles dictated by the patriarchy.
@The owner of this blog:
Why do you hate women so much? Feminism is working to free us and by extension, you men. I find your attitudes saddening. You're privileges will hurt you, please stop.
@Michael:
"The good news is: After this is over, there will be a pattern left in people's mind. The moment the next man gets framed with similar allegations, it will be easier for the general public to recognize what's going on:"
This pattern that you speak of ought to link up with the pattern that was laid down by the Duke lacrosse case. Funny thing is, though, that the Duke case has gone down the memory hole so quickly -- or at least they're trying to push it thataways!
@TheEarnestFeminist:
From the tenor of your remarks you sound, not like a hag, but rather a useful idiot working on the devil's road-paving crew.
Oh. . and where do you get off telling me that I hate women? I'm just curious is all. I'll betcha that you can't comb through the archives of this blog (over 600 posts!) and find even ONE woman-hating statement! Not one.
"Why do you hate women so much? Feminism is working to free us and by extension, you men."
Excuse me.
Are you by any chance an android?
"I'll betcha that you can't comb through the archives of this blog (over 600 posts!) and find even ONE woman-hating statement! Not one."
Oh, Fidelbogen! You are cruel sometimes.
If I don't know Fidelbogen, then I don't know that he knows all about feminist use of linguistic relativity; or, we could say, semantic bleaching. And nor would a visiting chancer!
But don't you see how earnestly she pleads for us to stop? Stop discussing feminism without a feminist's prior written approval, she pleads! Because don't you know that this is woman-hating?
Examples are everywhere, Fidelbogen - why, there must be six hundred in each of your six hundred posts! Don't you know what a dicohotomous world we live in? You are either a feminist or a misogynist - that is how the world works - at least that is what they have told me, I dare not think for myself without their guidance.
Men being an extension of women, and men's freedom being an extension of women's freedom, I find it perfectly clear that when women are free, men shall also be free - by extension - just so long as women exclusively get to define the terms of freedom. Doesn't this make a lot of sense? Answer earnestly.
Think of it in this way. I suppose I use an appliance to help me in some task, and I have no doubt that you do too. Pick any one that works for you. Now, when I am working, that appliance becomes an extension of my work, that is, my working self, and thus, my self.
So, when I am free, that appliance will be free too - because I will be free to use it in any way of my own choosing. Do you see how men shall be free in precisely the same way once women are fully liberated from their invisible shackles?
Men, I do think, shall finally achieve their true value when feminism finally triumphs; that is, they shall perform to their maximum labour-power, producing the maximum value possible to be siphoned off for more noble purposes. What a sight it shall be to behold!
And with various physical modifications, men shall truly become all they can be. They will finally be fixed - because they are all broken inside, and only feminists know the cure, which is to break them on the outside too.
You know, many things have been called freedom. Now, what is that Orwellian quote that is lost in the back of my mind? Well, it's best not to think about these things without the supervision of distraught feminists. It is male privilege to think - perhaps I shall be lucky, and she shall come back, to remember for me.
"Now, what is that Orwellian quote that is lost in the back of my mind?"
Might have been a Hegelian quote, if you want to stretch it.
". . perhaps I shall be lucky, and she shall come back, to remember for me."
Yeah, I'll leave the porch light on, for sure! ;)
@the feminist filth
You insult my intelligence. It's your filth that portrays Dominant women as cruel and hateful towards men. I love my subby hubby, and We do want loving relationships with men. It's because of your filth, that my husband got sexually harassed and he got no help at all. Your kind insults Me, by claiming to speak for all women! NO! I'm an advocate for equal rights and your filth hates men and women who don't conform! You can rot in Nifelheim, you filthy hurtful creature!
@Fidelbogen
You are not a woman hater. I haven't seen anything that even resembles woman hating. I'm sorry for that rant too >.> It damages the fun and jovial mood of this blog.
@Snark
I don't hope she comes back. She's going to say something about how I'm "enabling the patriarchy" or something because I happen to enjoy being a Dominant woman. She can stay away!
". .the fun and jovial mood of this blog.
Ahhh..Jovial, by Jove! But don't forget that Jove also hurls lightning bolts from Mt. Olympus on occasion!
And sometimes he even farms out that job to others. ;)
"This group happens to be a religious group(Norse heathenry) and us women are in agreement that feminism is destroying families and hurting the men in our lives. We discuss unfair laws and petition to change them. Feminism is Loki's brood, pure and simple. >:-("
Nice to see another of our own on the right side of this issue. We need to drive the feminist scumbags and feminist supporters OUT of our religious circles,and yesterday. Overemphasis of the feminine and female supremacy goes against everything people like you and me believe in.
I am not a Heathen,but I travel in many of the same circles.
We have more of a reason to be pissed off about feminist than many others, as they have been making a mockery of many of our common religious beliefs since the late '60s.
Keep up the good work.The group I belong to,which follows the traditions of the Babylonian priesthood,supports you in your endeavors and adopts a similar posture toward feminists and their ilk.
@Fidelbogen
:-) That was good.
By the way: What do you make of the blog, Feminist Critics? My husband found the blog last night and read a bit. He said it had some valid criticisms of feminism and MRAs, he said while he doesn't agree with all the conclusions it makes, but, it definitely was worth a read.
"Nice to see another of our own on the right side of this issue. We need to drive the feminist scumbags and feminist supporters OUT of our religious circles,and yesterday. Overemphasis of the feminine and female supremacy goes against everything people like you and me believe in."
Feminists and their supporters are infiltrating every kind of religious circle they can get their hands on.
Interesting. I have chatted with a few Traditional Catholics who want no part of feminism, and now. . .
. . . the wind blows "heathens" to my doorstep saying just the same.
All manner of groups and groupuscules all across the social landscape are plotting rebellion against feminism, it seems.
The non-feminist revolution looks ripe to jump to the next level, but the question is. .HOW?
@sbw:
What do I think of Feminist Critics?
Well. . I don't understand what the hell their problem is with the acronym M.R.A.
It just means that you are a booster of the idea that men have rights. That is ALL it means. Finito.
And MRAs are a varied lot, as I said elsewhere.
FC's so-called "criticism" amounts to nothing better than biased sampling of a certain demographic sector that is arbitrarily branded with that acronym.
But here is a CF post from 2 years ago which says a couple things about FC:
http://counterfem.blogspot.com/2008/12/it-belongs-to-youtake-it.html
". . . the wind blows "heathens" to my doorstep saying just the same."
Well,I'm more of a generalized Pagan myself. I was referring to 'blood's wife as a fellow Pagan, when I said "One of our own".
I've been reading you for some time.
"The non-feminist revolution looks ripe to jump to the next level, but the question is. .HOW?"
My opinion is that we need to do what I'm trying to do. We need to build bridges and network around the feminist problem, while shoving them out the door.
The right-leaning MRA's need to reach out to Pagans,most Pagans are left only because the right refuses to respect their right to practice their religion in peace. If the right (typically a male domain) says "Hey guys, come right on in." male and male-friendly pagans will flee the left. All they need to do is REFRAIN from prefacing it with "Your Gods are false and you're all going to hell,but..".
I'm of the mind that all we need to do is get enough powder in one place and the "spark" all MRAs are earnestly hoping for will happen automatically,like a 55 gallon drum full of socks spontaneously combusting (it actually does happen) our own MRM Woodstock moment.
I can see it happening,man. I can almost even feel it.
All we need is a common universal goal. Bring feminism down, or render it ineffectual,should be something we can all agree on.
@Anon10:34:
Great comment; the kind I live for.
It's late, but I shall return tomorrow to take up some of the points you have raised.
@Fidelogen
I see. I'll tell my husband.
@Anon pagan
Neat! Norse heathenry in most of it's flavors actually leans to to libertarianism with a conservative bent. I hate how feminists will emphasize the goddesses and lower the importance of the gods. I worship the gods as much as the goddesses, as they are equally important.
May the Wolf-feeder and the One Eyed Old Man, bring justice to feminism and give wisdom to MRAs respectfully.(What? I take my religion seriously. :-) )
@silentblood's wife
These patriarchy deniers do not care for your opinions. You are brainwashed to be submissive, your father and husband(yes, he is your master) want you to be a child under their care. They want you to obey. They have abused you and programmed you to serve with a smile. The patriarchy deniers are misogynous. Period! They want all women to be obedient servants, to cater to their whims. You are not a dominant woman! Hierarchy is the tool of the patriarchy.
I think the distraught android is about to explode.
Take cover!
@the feminist filth
What the hell did you even say? You fail to realize that some women do want submissive husbands to love and lead. Humans are hierarchal by nature and *gasp* males are usually the leaders. You insult this valid criticism and you fail radfem theory. Your own argument fails in it's attempt to bash men. Read up on it, and come back here with valid arguments. Your argument fails becuase it is incompatible radfem ideology. Your own insecurity in yourself is bleeding through, please try again.
SbW said 2 distraught:
"What the hell did you even say?"
Yes, SbW, that very same question is reverberating in my brain also. Only, I was thinking about phrasing it politely. Bad habit, I know.
(Mercy sakes! When they commence to using phrases like "patriarchy denier", you KNOW that they are getting desperate!)
Hey distraught, has anybody told you about the kyriarchy yet? I do believe that word is all the rage amongst cutting-edge feminists who are staying ahead of the game! ;)
@The patriarchy deniers
You don't get it do you? Women are oppressed, because of men like you. Silentblood has clearly abused his wife, she parrots his apparent misogyny. She is enslaved! As long as the patriarchy exists all women are raped and all men are abusers. Women are forced to be barefoot and pregnant, forced to obey!
@silentblood's wife
Free yourself from your shackles and fight the patriarchy Silentblood is abusing you and raping you. He is a thief in the night!
Hey Billy Joe-Bob, gol-dang, I think we got us a LIVE ONE here, yup!!
@the feminist filth
No. You failed miserably. Radfem theory states that women are only raped when they don't initiate sex, because women are suffiently oppressed not to really have a choice in the matter. So, yes. my husband "raped" me. Second, you failed to answer Fidelbogen. Do you know what a kyriarchy is? Thirdly, my husband does not abuse me, I came to my opinions on my own. Finally, you have to try harder than that.
@Fidelbogen
Did I get moderated out of existence?
I want to debate this filth.
"Did I get moderated out of existence?"
Nah, you just got shuffled in the queue is all! ;)
". .you failed to answer Fidelbogen. Do you know what a kyriarchy is?"
Uh, I'm pretty sure I can find it in my heart to forgive her for that little omission! ;)
*sigh*
@silentblood's wife
You are oppressed by the patriarchy even if your husband doesn't excercise his patriarchal privilege. He might love you, but he holds his privilege over you, ready to excercise it if you step out of line. He abuses you that way. Men are sexist by their very nature, take for example the three major monotheistic religions: God is portrayed as male, and even language has a male bias.
"Silentblood has clearly abused his wife, she parrots his apparent misogyny. She is enslaved! As long as the patriarchy exists all women are raped and all men are abusers."
Only a feminist could see patriarchy in a situation where the woman is dominant and the man is a submissive.
You make me laugh. Either you are an intentional caricature of a radical feminist or you are the dumbest feminist I have ever seen,and that would be saying something.
Feminists will soon have no one to quarter their insane anti-male bigots.With the power of love,reason, community and friendship we will overcome your hatred and vile slander and build a bridge between loving women and loving men where you built a stinking chasm full of smoke and death and a river of mistrust.
Edin na zu,lilitu.
@Fidelbogen
No. You asked her a direct question. It's good manners to answer, isn't that correct?
"No. You asked her a direct question. It's good manners to answer, isn't that correct?"
Oh, but I was being flippant. But believe me, when I go into serious interrogation mode, there's no mistaking it.
@Anon
"Only a feminist could see patriarchy in a situation where the woman is dominant and the man is a submissive."
Radfems are against all forms power exchanges:
A Radical Feminist Analysis,Robin Morgan writes, "If they grovel to a male master they are mimicking (for fun) an experience all women in patriarchy are in some way or another forced to endure in reality. If they cower before a female 'dominatrix,' they are superficially reversing, and thereafter trivializing, real women's real oppression."
She is correct, technically...
"You make me laugh. Either you are an intentional caricature of a radical feminist or you are the dumbest feminist I have ever seen,and that would be saying something."
I don't think so. Radfems are anti-BDSM...
"He might love you, but he holds his privilege over you, ready to excercise it if you step out of line. He abuses you that way. Men are sexist by their very nature, take for example the three major monotheistic religions: God is portrayed as male, and even language has a male bias."
I know a little more about being a man AND religion than you do,feminist.
I can say definitively that the reason the three major monotheistic religions feature a male God is because they were based on a prior religion, the first monotheistic religion,Zoroastrianism, which happened to feature a male God and a male devil.
That's the problem with you feminists, always using the Apex Fallacy. You only look at the male at the top, never looking to see that the one on the BOTTOM is ALSO MALE.
We could also say that women are sexist by nature with as much evidence. For instance, when has a female politician or scientist created anything specifically for men?
Yet you have tons of laws enacted by MEN to do everything from give women the vote to protecting their assets in divorce and many inventions designed to ease childbirth, protect WOMEN but not men from sex-specific diseases and so forth.
You can look to all this and claim MEN are abusing women? Women didn't survive childbirth 60% of the time until we came along. We put ourselves at risk of tuberculosis to provide for our families working in a coal mine for 16 hours a day for PENNIES. WOMEN benefited from that, not men. Most men didn't survive past age 30. There is still a significant health gap, men die almost a decade earlier because we spend all our money on women's diseases and MEN ARE SEXIST?
You're crazy,feminist.
None of us are saying WOMEN are sexist, though, feminists certainly, but not WOMEN.
Where's your evidence for sexism on the part of men? The gender of English words and monotheistic deities isn't evidence,that's intentionally misleading claptrap. I can do the same thing all day long, but I have more integrity than to try to accuse women of sexism full-stop with no evidence.
I'm pretty sure that only the original 'distraught feminist' comment was real. You have all fallen victim to an ingenious troll.
But isn't it interesting how ... similar the parody is to reality?
"None of us are saying WOMEN are sexist, though, feminists certainly, but not WOMEN."
Is it sexist when I want my husband to love, honor, and OBEY me?
I sure hope not.
Because then I would be enabling the Matriarchy.
*rolls eyes*
"Is it sexist when I want my husband to love, honor, and OBEY me?
I sure hope not."
Not if you and he both vowed to do so,it's perfectly fine,in my opinion.
What is sexist is making statements like "all men are rapists" that would be considered outrageous if you removed "men" and replaced it with the name of any other group.
For instance, "all blacks are rapists", that's riot-worthy,isn't it?
How about "All Jews are rapists",anti-semitic,yes?
"All men are rapists", we then conclude, is sexist.
Obvious, it it not?
I meant *patriarchy*
"But isn't it interesting how ... similar the parody is to reality?"
Thank you Snark, that thought had occurred to me too. The Parody is so similar to reality that it might as well be. . eh. . the real McCoy.
Which leads me to ponder the "why" of arguing with feminism, if it is indistinguishable from arguing with a troll.
I say, treat it all like a great big entertaining game.
(Reaches for a beer. .)
"Which leads me to ponder the "why" of arguing with feminism, if it is indistinguishable from arguing with a troll."
She was a troll to begin with. A feminist accused you of being a woman hater and if she wasn't for real, that is one talented troll... I thought it was real.
1. The "distraught" feminist seemed to be radical. Everything is misogynous in their eyes. My D/s relationship, this blog, and possible all men.
2. I found the troll fun, if it posts anymore "enlightening" comments I want to argue them.
3. Snark is right. It's more or less the same thing with different intentions.
"Which leads me to ponder the "why" of arguing with feminism, if it is indistinguishable from arguing with a troll."
You don't really argue WITH feminists, you argue AT them, or ideally, argue PAST or OVER them. Arguing WITH them is like arguing with a child. I remember how impossible it was when I was a child to tell other children there was no Santa Claus. They would say "But that means my mom LIED TO ME!". That's exactly what it means, bucko.
Feminists are exactly the same. Despite the rational explanation, the adults in your life told you a lie, being HANDED to them, they would rather believe the irrational explanation,i.e, that a man in a red suit flies magical reindeer all over the world giving toys to children for some reason. They can't bring themselves to accept the truth when it is ugly.
I would rather know the ugly truth, than to continue on an unwitting dupe of a liar who is laughing at my gullibility and credulity. The longer you allow yourself to be lied to, the stupider and weaker you actually are.
How long will feminists allow bitter old lesbians to tell them there is a secret worldwide conspiracy (a conspiracy that exists despite all the outward manifestations that it doesn't) by all men to oppress all women? How long will they allow themselves to be duped?
They will be stupid and weak right to the bitter end,it appears. As I said, this was a skillful caricature of a feminist, quite well done, but the illusion was not without tipoffs that it was being crafted by another kind of mind.
It's very funny, but in a "laugh or you'll cry" kind of way, because unfortunately, feminists really are this dense and impossible to reason with.And it is exasperating at times to think this is the obstacle that we must remove before we can be treated as human beings, a squealing,impetuous child blocks our path to freedom. And it's all a game to these people.
"You don't really argue WITH feminists, you argue AT them, or ideally, argue PAST or OVER them. "
Or. . as I have often said, AGAINST them (to sympathetic 3rd parties who can be recruited). Ideally, like rolling rocks down a mountainside at your enemy.
". .the illusion was not without tipoffs that it was being crafted by another kind of mind."
Those tipoffs consisting of pushing the idiocy envelope just a shade too far.
Just slightly enough that only a practiced eye would be likely to spot it.
*reads the exchange above*
It's a strawman of a radical feminist. Radfems are actually fairly varied themselves, etherial(Gregory Pettigrew) is a good example. Etherial's actual views are closer to liberal feminism with strong dashes of radfem ideology. This troll did insult me and my wife however. I'm going to assume that s/he is testing our mettle and cool.
@Fidelbogen
I'm not disagreeing with you. The problem is that our friendly troll, specifically designed itself to be an exaggeration. The radfem above assumes that we don't know radfem theory(and thusly can't argue against it well) My wife was never a feminist, I was, I could spot it's exaggerations and strawmen. The fallacy would be the assumption that all radfems are the same(they're not, Dworkin and Morgan, for example, were different. I believe Morgan proposed separatism and Dworkin, lesbianism)
@silentblood:
Oh, boooger dat radfem theory!
Counter-feminist analysis gets right to the bottom of ALL the theories, and scoops them clean outta the loop.
What matters in the end is not feminist "theory", but feminist reality. And the good news is that you don't even need to be a feminist to speak with authority on THAT subject. You just gotta know a few basic principles, and after that, know what to look for.
Oh heavens, that reminds me, i REALLY ought to get back to work on this big long post that I am writing. . .
"Oh heavens, that reminds me, i REALLY ought to get back to work on this big long post that I am writing. . ."
Looking forward to it. I will continue to try to bring our brothers together,where possible. It is a difficult thing to convince men to lay down their arms,but I believe this is a sink or swim moment, and men are intelligent and rational enough to see the threat posed to their common interests by feminism and that they must act now,grievances notwithstanding.
"It is a difficult thing to convince men to lay down their arms.."
Or to take up arms.
@Fidelbogen
I guess. It would probably blow your mind on the level of detail I could go on the differences between anarcho-feminism and libertarian feminism. :-)
Hell, sometimes I blow feminists' minds :-p
@Anonymous Pagan 10:34 above:
"The non-feminist revolution looks ripe to jump to the next level, but the question is. .HOW?"
My opinion is that we need to do what I'm trying to do. We need to build bridges and network around the feminist problem, while shoving them out the door.
That is not too far from my own thinking.(Net)working around, talking over their heads to the rest of the world, and finally hanging them up to dry.
The question is what it means to shove them "out the door". They are entrenched in many quarters due to their various 'long marches' -- through culture, institutions, professions, etc, and our task probably ought to be to shadow them through the nooks and crannies where they have ensconced themselves.
Practically speaking, that means having "our people" in all of those places in order both to counteract local feminist influence, and to spread OUR message through available channels by available means in such localities.
EVENTUALLY. . it may turn into a very interesting kind of turf war.
To get Our People into those places, we can either inject them from outside, or assume that they are already inside and want only awakening. I lean toward the latter way of thinking -- which is why continued agitation/outreach efforts are important. It will grow the movement in general, but it will also rouse the strategically placed and variously-talented "sleepers".
"The right-leaning MRA's need to reach out to Pagans,most Pagans are left only because the right refuses to respect their right to practice their religion in peace. If the right (typically a male domain) says "Hey guys, come right on in." male and male-friendly pagans will flee the left. All they need to do is REFRAIN from prefacing it with "Your Gods are false and you're all going to hell,but.."."
Building COALITIONS is the next tier up from agitating, outreaching and recruiting. Different individuals and groups in different places are bestirring themselves, and they need first to become highly aware of each other, and secondly, able to coordinate their actions.
The Left-right Question is a tangled can of worms in itself, and I won't even go there right now . . .
"I'm of the mind that all we need to do is get enough powder in one place and the "spark" all MRAs are earnestly hoping for will happen automatically,like a 55 gallon drum full of socks spontaneously combusting (it actually does happen) our own MRM Woodstock moment."
Either that, or powder-trains left all over the landscape in breadcrumb style, needing only the touch of a match to trigger sizzling, zapping sheets of fire that shoot everywhere.
"I can see it happening,man. I can almost even feel it."
Ditto.
"All we need is a common universal goal. Bring feminism down, or render it ineffectual,should be something we can all agree on."
Hanging an out-of-business sign on feminism sounds like a plan.
"Hell, sometimes I blow feminists' minds :-p"
Now you're thinking like a counter-feminist! One of the principles of counter-feminism is to know them better than they know themselves.
@Fidelbogen
Having an ex-feminist for a husband is difficult sometimes. His criticisms are totally square always using their jargon to debate them. He confuses me too! Feminist theory is confusing and I have to ask him to explain things/Google it. Why do feminists have to be so confusing? My subby hubby understands them and can critique and debate them, and I feel stupid. Well at least I can understand your criticisms! ^_^
@SbW:
I find feminist jargon not so much confusing as tiresome and presumptuous. And I understand it in broad outline; enough that it insults my intelligence. Other than that, I am too lazy to study it in microscopic detail, and have better things to do with my time.
Debating them in their own jargon hands them half the victory before the argument even gets off the runway. The winning strategy is to relentlessly criticize them in the way that that Karl Marx spoke about, and force them to explain themselves over and over and over.
And finally, make them understand that if they wish to converse with non-feminists, they need to talk normal English like normal people.
Their jargon is mainly a way for them to HIDE.
@Fidelbogen
I agree. Feminists like to hide behind their jargon and academia. My subby hubby(You know? That feels weird saying that in the context of this site, sorry had to get that out) needs to understand that, and stop playing their games. I want feminism to go away, and let's promote "equalism" instead. It makes no sense to me that women, just by virtue of being women, are oppressed. Does that make sense to anyone else?
"My subby hubby(You know? That feels weird saying that in the context of this site, sorry had to get that out) needs to understand that, and stop playing their games."
MRA's are not concerned with people's private sexual choices. Unlike feminists, we don't believe in bringing a microscope into your bedroom to analyze your private relationship for signs of "oppression". The personal is apolitical for us. It's the political that's political, and that's what we're concerned with.
We want to remove government-sanctioned obstacles to men's happiness, we are concerned with how men are treated by the police, the courts, and the government. We want a Department of Men's health, where feminists want to reduce men to and maintain our numbers at 10% of the human population.We want presumption of shared custody where feminists want to set up stud farms and appropriate the rights to men's genetic material to themselves.
We don't care what you do behind closed doors, all we want is for the government-sponsored oppression of men to end.We want men to stop being treated as worthless in times of peace and only valuable as cannon fodder in times of war.
"Feminists like to hide behind their jargon and academia."
I should add that they also like to hide behind women.
". . stop playing their games."
The core of my thinking since day one.
"I want feminism to go away, and let's promote "equalism". ."
The problem with "equality" as a concept is that it is nearly impossible to give it a coherent meaning outside the environment of mathematical operations. Thank the French Revolution for the baneful gift of boosting "equality" into the realm of political discourse.
The only way to make men and women "equal" is to annul the categories of male and female altogether. And that is precisely the quandary that feminism founders upon. Feminism is built upon a screwball ideation; it smacks of mental illness.
It makes no sense to me that women, just by virtue of being women, are oppressed. Does that make sense to anyone else?
I think it makes more sense to say that some women are sometimes oppressed in some ways by virtue of being women. And other times not. But that is just one of a long string of reasons why women (or anybody else) might be "oppressed". It gets fantastically complicated in no time at all, and yet the feminists try to make life simple for themselves by selling the rest of us the simplified idea that "women are oppressed". It makes the snake oil go down smoother!
Besides, I think that women should be left alone to oppress themselves! I think they are fully competent to do so, and in the name of "equality" I think it is high time that men stopped hogging all the credit! ;)
@Anon:
"The personal is apolitical" would make a very good t-shirt or bumper sticker that could be put into operation at the present stage without undue fear of repercussions.
@Anon
My husband and I are advocates for equal rights and oppurtunities. I simply feel weird, given my experience with feminists on D/s boards(they are the ultimate trolls)
@Fidelbogen
I used "equalism" because of a lack of ways to express my intentions. Besides, I like equalism for it's non-gender bias sound. Unlike masculism or feminism, it doesn't reek of gender bias.
@TiredOf:
Interesting point you have raised. It has led me me ponder, which may prove clarificatory.
As you already know, I don't like the word feminism. But perhaps you are not yet aware that I do not apply the term "masculist" to myself. I do not believe in "masculism".
The only circumstance that might give an outside observer the impression that I espouse such a thing, is the fact that I advocate political consciousness-raising for men. But the reason I do that is, in a word, policy.
Men need to exist politically, as men, in order to turn the tide against feminism. It's that simple. I honestly don't think it will happen any other way.
So, I call myself a counter-feminist, a CFAC, an activated non-feminist, a non-feminist partisan, a partisan of the non-feminist sector, etc, etc.
Toss MRA into the mix when you get a chance.
I am objectively an anti-feminist, but that is not a descriptor which I rhetorically declare. However, the phrase "activated non-feminist" amounts to exactly the same thing in both theory and practice.
Overall, I don't pay much mind to equality rhetoric or the realm of discourse pertaining to it. In my opinion, all of this creates a problem by masking the LACK of a problem. To wit, it is a tissue of non-issues.
Finally, I should add that if feminism stays in business (and keeps growing), then it will be bad for men, and if it is bad for men, it will ULTIMATELY be bad for women as well -- for the simple reason that we live in a social ecology, and you can't poison just half of a well.
So, the best medicine for men and women both, is to attack feminism in all of its roots and branches. Just that, single-mindedly. Do that alone, and many of these other issues that people obsessively chatter about will dry up and blow away. (They are "real" mainly because feminism has made them so in the first place.)
@Fidelbogen
Hey! I see what you did there.
"@TiredOf"
:-) It's ok. I agree with the gist of what you said.
By the way: This thread is pretty long, huh? Almost 80 comments/posts
"This thread is pretty long, huh? Almost 80 comments/posts"
I post this short comment for the sole purpose of ringing the "80" bell.
DING!!
Yes. An all-time record buster for this blog. The previous record was about 65, I think.
"Yes. An all-time record buster for this blog. The previous record was about 65, I think."
Kudos to you.Hopefully the buzz gets this out in the open. The first step on the path to overcoming feminism is questioning it. The feminists know this, which is why they silence debate on the basic principles which tie their entire hateful tapestry together.
Once you pull on the fraying ends of "Patriarchy Theory",the whole thing begins to unravel.
All we need to do to overcome feminism is to encourage people to do due diligence on it and apply normal,healthy skepticism to the issue. That's why talking on these blogs is so important. Many MRA's claim "just talking" will never accomplish anything.
Nonsense. Talking is what starts the path of dissecting,one by one, the irrational tenets of feminist thought. Our "endless discussions" are a metaphorical sanitization of gender discourse. Once the public is open to looking at both sides with a natural,healthy, skeptical eye, then some kind of balance can be reached in these issues.
MRA's have nothing to fear from this process. We base our claims on facts that anyone can research for themselves, feminists base them on theoretical models that require you to accept ideas which are unproven,unprovable, or untestable, due to the fact that they FORBID these ideas to be tested.
All we are doing and need to do is to apply the scientific method to their claims. If [x] is true,then [y] will happen in [z] circumstance.
Feminists are highly afraid of this. They tried covering people's eyes (didn't work,natural curiosity,and all that),now they're trying to order people to cover their own eyes. This won't work. The last coercive method available to them is to attempt to penalize people for looking at the facts. People will revolt against this most of all,no one likes being directly attacked.
The worst of the feminist onslaught is still yet to come,the last stage, but I firmly believe that destiny will smile on us this time. Truth is on our side, time is on our side, and I hope, our various Gods/karma/fortune or luck is on our side.
Feminists are between a rock and a hard place,the longer they wait, the stronger and more unified our side becomes, the more heavy-handed their methods to attack us,the more they alienate the middle and their own side. As desperation begins to set in,they will flail about like an animal caught in a trap, and they will do more damage to themselves instead of doing the logical thing and chewing off the trapped limb.
They can't chew off the trapped limb, because the arm we have trapped is the one feminism relies on for recruitment and political subversion.
Feminists females want to be men. The worst part of being a man is the possibility of someone "having you by the balls",as feminists will soon discover.
I was rather pleased with Wolf's article, but alas she has just published a new one at Huff in which she pushes the idea that Sweden is unfair to women when it comes to rape cases!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/post_1435_b_797188.html
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